I called and talked with someone that works in the office there at my mom's senior living place and asked what it might be she signed related to her housekeeping? Ok, so typically they clean once a week, but not everyone always wants/needs it done every week (my mom would be fine to have hers done every other week) so the day before an apartment is scheduled to be clean the housekeeper leaves a form for each resident to check off whether they want their apt cleaned the next day or not. Repeat the next week.
I said oh ok, that makes sense, but my concern is now with her memory, she no longer remembers when it was last cleaned so she just will keep saying no.....so the office lady said she's going to have the cleaning person keep track of how long it's been between cleanings and said my mom also is of course more than welcome to be in her apartment while the cleaning lady is there, if she's worried something might get taken. So, these will now be 2 things I will have to keep reminding/mentioning to my mom so that her room gets cleaned and her linens washed. We'll try out the medication dispenser and hire laundry lady and see how that goes.
I still don't quite understand why my mom was thinking that she signed something with the cleaning lady and now was worried she was into her bank account. Just the mind playing tricks on her, obviously. When I spoke with her yesterday morning she was doing much better.
Then we had her quarterly conference call update with her investment guy. Well, that was interesting to say the least. He, of course, was aware we had contacted his assistant about changing the beneficiary percentages. He said he was going to give his opinion on this and said at this "later stage" in her life it's best not to make changes. I said oh, ok, so she should just leave as is, even if she wants to make a change, then? He says "well, no....what I recommend is she changes it to 50% go to "her" heirs and 50% goes to my step dads (4) children. If not, it will most likely be contested". I asked based on what grounds?? He said that the money had also been my step dads money and a judge would deem that them getting 50% would be fair". My mom said "but it's my money". I said that in the 12 years, since my step dads death, she has never had them receiving more than 2.5% each (a total of 10% of the money) and that is has never been her intention to leave them much, if anything at all. He repeated the contesting part and then said "that was J's (step dad) account!". I'm like no...it was both my mom and his money, earned, invested and acquired over 35 years of marriage. When he died, it became her money. He then went on to say the 50% split is only fair. My mom said but I don't have a relationship with any of them. His response was "it's not about the relationship, it's about what's fair and could be contested".
Both my mom and said we'll discuss this some more and get back to him. My mom called me back right away. She's like did I understand him correctly and he's saying half goes to J's kids? I said that's what he's saying. She said but that's my money. What if I had just spent it all these years? Then she had a smart thought, she said "and if they are entitled to half then it should just be half of what the account was at the time of their dad's death...not what it is now. What it is now is because I saved it and kept investing it". I also added, and you were only 68 when he died, what if you had remarried and left your money to your new husband? I would think you would have certainly had that right.
I told her I am going to call the attorney who just did up her will and health care directive and get his opinion on this and we'll decide based on that information. The office doesn't open up until 9am and most likely I will have to wait for a return call, so probably not getting an quick answer this morning or maybe even today.
I also did a little good old googling on whether step children have rights to inheritances from their step mother. All I'm finding so far is a big fat NO they are not! She is not legally required to leave them (or even me for that matter!) anything at all. If she didn't have a will or beneficiaries listed, it would go to her next of kin (me), they would have no rights to any of it. If she wants step children to have something then she has to specifically add them in her will and/or beneficiaries, just as she has done. One article I read a man had 2 step sons and no biological children. His wife died before him. He changed his will for his stepsons to inherit his estate, but forgot to change his 401k beneficiary. It has been set up with only his wife and no contingent. Since retirement money is not part of the will/probate, that 401k money was distributed to the man's legal next of kin, his siblings.
I'm sure I'll get varying opinions on this from you all, but bottom line what is "fair" is my mom's decision, not her investment guys. And what legally she is required to do. For the first 9 years after my dad died what was "fair" to her was me getting 100%. In 2018 what she felt fair was 60% to me, 30% to her brother, and 2.5% to each stepchild. What she feels is "fair" now is for her brother to not inherit 30% of her money. He is near her age, he has no wife or children, and she now doesn't like that idea that that much of her money could basically end up "lost" or to who knows who would get it. She also repeatedly has mentioned to me, every time we bring up who gets what %, is she doesn't even think she needs to leave her step children anything. I just keep saying, oh let's just leave it as is. Also, legal wise, she of course never adopted any of these step children. The 2 oldest were already adults when she and my step dad married, the other 2 were teenagers. The oldest is turning 70, then 68, 62 and 60 years old, they are.
I feel he really overstepped his bounds on this. I told my boss about it and she was like wow! She can't believe he would insert himself into who she should leave her money to. His job is just to invest it for her. I'm looking forward to hearing what the estate attorney has to say about all this.
While I agree with you 110% and feel the guy was way, Way, WAY out of line, I suspect there is underlying experience(s) there making him overly cautious to the point of excessively conservative in these types of family dynamic situations. You are wise to seek out independent counsel from the estate attorney. In my view, the most important "harmony" of desires between you (as primary caretaker) and your mom. Unfortunately when it comes to money people are not always rational, and your step-sibs could develop a sudden case of entitlement.
ReplyDeleteyes, I'd much rather get the legal advice/aspect of it confirmed by her attorney, then take the investment guys word that it would probably be contested and half given to them. I have not yet found one article/information online that says they are entitled to anything at all. Everything I have found so far says they have absolutely no rights to her money, even if she didn't leave a will. At first I was understanding of his wanting to give his opinion, but when he said "but that was J's account!", he ticked me off right then. It's not like my step dad had this account before their 35 years of marriage, it was their joint account they created together from their income, investments, sells of homes over the years, etc.
DeleteWhoa! That investment guy is WAAAAY out of line IMO. You are smart to do your own research and consult an attorney. I agree she doesn't have to leave them anything. Just wow. Is that her best choice as an investment guy? I know she's elderly, but I switched all my investments some years back after running into a guy who was really bossy and gave me bad advice.
ReplyDeleteWell, I had always thought that he was a good choice. My step dad used to handle their investments and my mom handled all the bills and checking/savings accounts. My dad got with this guy like 25 or 30 years ago. Then my mom stayed with him since step dad died. He has always seemed to do really well with her investments, but right now I feel he really stepped over the line on this.
DeleteI think if my mom made a similar decision, her investor would give his own advice. I can see why it feels the way it feels, because at the end of the day it's her $$ and she can still decide to do what she wants with it. The investor has probably seen so much bad stuff go down, but he should've asked if you wanted his opinion, or said it in a different way before giving the opinion.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree and would have been ok if he had just said hey, due to having step children I really recommend you talk to an attorney about this, rather than just say a judge is going to agree and give them 50%
DeleteDevils advocate here. Say you died tomorrow and DH married a lady and remained married for 25 years then died. The money he brought to the marriage and commingled with his new wife should not become 100% hers the day he died. If she lives another 10 years I feel that your daughter would still be entitled to some of it because the lady would not have what she has if it wasn’t for her marriage to your DH. I think the financial adviser is trying to head off a contested will especially with the dementia diagnosis thrown in.
ReplyDeletewell, apparently it doesn't work that way, legally. And my step dad or mom, brought NO money to their marriage. He lost everything in his divorce, let alone had 2 large child supports for several years. My mom owned a single wide trailer. Everything that they got they earned together during their 35 marriage. If my mom had remarried, again, and decided to leave her money, because at the end of the day, it's legally her money after step dad died, to the next husband, she had that right. She doesn't even have to leave anything to me if she doesn't want to.
DeleteSo you would be ok if you died, hubby got everything and remarried. She got everything if he died then in her will leaves everything to her adult kids and nothing to your dd (I think this is what Karen is saying) interesting, the same scenario flipped? I think maybe the advisor was trying to help/forwarn you maybe?
DeleteHonestly, if he remarried and that many years went by and he didn't make a provision for our kids, then yes, that's what it is. Or as my mom commented yesterday, if they are owed 50%, why should they also get 50% of what SHE has earned from her frugalness and savings/investing on her own, the past 12+ years? or however long it will be until she passes.
DeleteJRE- I asked my dd what she would think in this scenario. She said it would be her dad's responsibility to make a provision for her if he died before her step mother. Otherwise when he died, of course all the money would belong to his wife.
DeleteI have known two different people who were left out of a will when a step parent outlived their parent. Both went to court and won an equal portion of the inheritance. I think her investment guy is just warning you to what he’s personally seen. My mother was a step and her dad died before her stepmom. The money was split equally between her and her 2 step siblings. When my mom received a third of the money she was surprised, but my uncle told her of course she got her fair share because the money was both parents, not just his mom’s . She outlived him by 15 years. I understand not leaving uncle money, but I don’t understand not being fair with the step siblings.
ReplyDeleteThat's what I'm counting on the attorney clarifying for us for sure what is what. If he says no, legally it should be split then that it what we will do. In the end, if she doesn't have to give them (or even me) anything then what's "fair" is her decision as to what she considers fair. My inlaws left out one of their 5 children from their will, on purpose. They were told she had no legal right to contest it, if they did that. It was all legal, legit and their "fair" in their minds.
DeleteNot the same, but people get goofy when money is involved! With other assets as well. Seek estate and will planning as you are. Of course we don't hear the tone, but I think the investor might have done you a favor to look now at the legal details, rather than trust "fair." Fair and legal are not the same
ReplyDeleteI think he did a favor, too, as now we can address what her legal rights and responsibilities are with her money. You are so right - legal and fair are 2 different things.
DeleteHe knows your mom has memory issues, he knows you changed the POA back to you. He knows that when your mom is gone your Step-siblings will be challenging everything. If you take your uncle out and he out lives your mom he can sue the estate.
ReplyDeleteYou really have to stop making changes, it is just too late.
That's what the attorney can decide and we'll go off of his recommendation. According to his legal assistant I chatted with quite awhile, it is not too late. They use a standard test to determine if someone is of sound mind and able to make changes. Can she state her name, her biological child(ren) name and her birthdate. That was interesting to learn. Of course she can still do that, no problem
DeleteAlso, if he felt that her step children are going to contest everything, then why wasn't this brought up when she added them as beneficiaries in the first place, 3 years ago? Not to mention her giving her brother 30%, they could also contest that, then I would think.
Deleteand I assumed that's what he was referring to when he said "I think you shouldn't make any changes at this late state in life" and I said ok, so we just should leave it be then? Then his reply was to completely change it, anyway! He was completely ok with dropping brother to 5%, and like you said, couldn't brother decide to contest this change? If steps can contest they aren't getting 50%....an attorney determination is much needed LOL.
DeleteThis guy has a history with this problem. Could he have been a stepchild who was left out? I am amazed that your mother had the wherewithal to call you back and make her own case. The money is hers! I would get a new guy to take care of her money. Whatever you do, make sure she is taking the meds so she will be clear-headed.
ReplyDeleteI was wondering the same thing or dd said maybe he is also managing one of the step kids investments, so is trying to increase their money down the road? maybe they decided to use the same guy as their dad. I was surprised a bit by what my mom brought up too, but as I said, she totally still understands concepts like that, it's just remembering what the actual conversations were that she has a hard time with. The new med system arrives at my house today. I'm going to try it out for a few days so I understand how it all works and then get it to her asap. I will kind of decide on if he should keep managing her money, after we talk to the attorney and see what he says.
DeleteI'm sure another investment advisor would love to get a hold of a million dollar portfolio, LOL. I will probably not do that, but even my mom today said, we'll maybe I just need to be done with him and find someone new! I'm like let's hold off for now and see what the attorney says. If by some chance investment guy is right, well, then he's right and was right to tell us. Though I still say then he should have told her all this 3 years ago when she set them up at 2.5% each!
DeleteI agree about the money your mom has earned since his death. Their share should be based on the value of his estate at the time of his death. If she had been conservative and just put it in a savings account it would not have grown and she would be spending principal. This is why a parent needs to plan for their child’s inheritance by protecting it in a trust. Second marriages can be so tricky to keep things fair.
ReplyDeleteYou'd think the attorney who did her first 2 wills would have brought this up to her, if she had a legal requirement to include them in her will at 50% (or the attorney we just used)
DeleteYou would think he would have mentioned it. You want to do everything you can to avoid a challenge to the will because only lawyers win. The value of her estate at the time of his death might be what you were planning to leave them anyways especially when you leave out your uncle’s amount. The big gains in the market have been in the last 10 years.
ReplyDeleteHer value back in 2009 was a little over half what it is now, so at 50% they each would have gotten about $75k. Now, with the value it is and at the 5% I wanted to up it to, they would right now get a little over $50k, so a bit less. It will definitely be interesting to hear what the attorney has to day about it all.
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